It comes from theexperience of writing a blog for a long time and hearing the same old, same old. Does it say milk of the word? That sounds contradictory to the importance that many place on the word. Life is full of uncertainties, and we will never be able to rid our lives of uncertainties, of doubts, of questions. Thank you! Is not the whole batch totally leavened regardless of the amount of yeast? That article Early Jesus Freak Movement Hollywood Free Paper country As Sixties(TM) as Rowan & Martins Laugh-In and then some. And when I talk of Calvinism, Im not talking about the way he viewed the authority of the church. Recently, I had a Calvinist who knowns me say that i was not a Christian by very fact that I write this blog and call out some of the people that he admires. Oy. Here is a quick bio on Olson from Wikipedia. The fervor of this movement reminds me of the early, heady days of the Jesus movement. Hes describing man, not God. @ Muff Potter: You should see another Christian blog where the wars are almost as bad (hatred-wise) as the different Muslim sects slaughtering each other in Iraq & Syria. The beginning of thought is in disagreement not only with others but also with ourselves.-Eric Hoffer. If you heard this preached, it might be from a Hyper-Calvinist church. These same people are taken to task for twisting the Calvin/Tulip/Reformed beliefs on blogs. I recently engaged the discussion on Denny Burks website regarding the PC(USA) rejecting the song In Christ Alone because of the line The wrath of God was satisfied. Thanks for the recommendation. B. However, they are limited, just as we are. I hold you in high esteem. Otherwise, you get dismissed as a hayseed rube who is barely literate and not qualified to question Calvinism. But, nothey will say, you dont have to agree with me! As I was saying in my post above, not only is it difficult communicating with Cals because they usually insist you just dont understand Cal!, but they cant agree with each other. This is the place where all the puzzle pieces do not fit for me, and I am OK with that. (I mean, Star Trek?). The Literature of the Old Testament (1913) [Chapter9], Introduction to the New Testament (1915) [Chapter9], https://laikostheologos.com/introduction-to-soteriology/%5B/footnote%5D, Cultural Dimension of Language andLiterature, Gods Sovereignty in relation to Mans sinfulacts. Joel B. Norm Geisler: normangeisler.com William Lane Craig: Reasonable Faith.org J. Warner Wallace: ColdCaseChristianity.com John Lennox: John Lennox.org Greg Koukl: STR.org Paul Copan: PaulCopan.com Ed Feser: http://edwardfeser.blogspot.com / Lee Strobel: Lee Strobel.com Josh McDowell: Josh.org First of all we have to understand that what is affirmed- that God ordains whatsoever comes to pass from all eternity- is not unique to Reformed theology. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Arminian_denominations. Maybe it isnt. I err on the side of allowing too much now, just because the value of finally being able to have a voice is so huge! I have a very low tolerance for that kind of thing. And I kind of doubt youre on call to give your Testimony in church; it just doesnt jibe with the Conventional Christianese Testimony. He isnt at cross-purposes with Himself, so the question is silly. Here is my point as a non-theology major. I dont think my faith would have survived such a horrible doctrine. But I can say, knowing what I now know about God, that God would never ever ever have set the evil I suffered in place intentionally. However, for thosewho believe that evangelical churches are theologically light, my church experiences would challenge their assumption. Jeff S (and B for that matter), you sound like a good and kind man and a thoughtful speaker. Hes big enough. Michael Horton, a Calvinist, did the forward to the book. Many of us, view double predestination to be in great conflict with the character of God as He presents Himself in scripture. Yet looking at a book's cover, or even . @ Bridget: At the end of the class, he was VERY sure where he stood- a non-Calvinist. Which of us sat down in total ignorance, started at Genesis, and came up with a belief system? Why can we not focus on God and Jesus and what He did for us? They are 1) the extent of man's depravity, 2) whether election is conditional, 3) the extent of Christ's atonement, 4) the nature of God's grace and 5) whether Christians will/must persevere in the faith. Finally, we must work together whenever possible. No. Yet, no matter how hard I tried to understand, I just couldn't get there. Every puzzle piece in its perfect place, no room for any doubt They alone have truth in ALL things, by Gods special revelation. Question: @netgrace was involved with Vineyard Duluth and did a great job. But are *we* the measure of truth? Our sinful human nature craves it. God forbid. But maybe there is just too much pain and hurt for that to be possible. I have certainly never heard anything about either topic in Lutheran circles, though I *have* heard much about Gods love, mercy, forgiveness and grace. Its more that the molecule is not outside of his authority. I dont think so, but Im pretty sure Spock was a Calvinist. People often pretend as though there is a dichotomy between Calvinism and Arminianism. Mark Driscoll, John Piper and Tim Keller megachurch preachers and important evangelical authors are all Calvinist. I know this sounds like a broad brush, but I think people need to know this dirty little secret. God is bigger than us and is beyond our understanding except for some basics. @ Jeff S: I will be honest JeffS and JeffB , I am often confused by the moving target that you described before. By no means is this true, and Im willing to bet it never really has been. These would include pedophilia, domestic violence, poverty, natural disasters, racial strife, etc. C.K. I think it is sad that the PC(USA) rejected the song because of a line that is part of their doctrinal heritage. Even if we say we agree in the fundamentals/indisputables Calvinism makes it clear, and both Jeffs have admitted, that there is no human agency capable of understanding truth fully. (though in truth, I probably still get to read most of your comments from my lurking place, even though I rarely get to comment anymore). People, including you, got upset from Calvinists just stating their views. No one likes to see (what they think is) a good doctrine maligned, especially if it leaves the real culprit at large. All we ask is that you pray for us when you get mad at us. Youd be shocked! Im not saying I agree with everything in the WCF, but its a really large hurdle to overcome to show that something it directly states is misrepresentative of Reformed thology/Calvinism without a mountain of evidence to support it. There appears to be a loss of respect for those who are not Calvinist in their thinking. And honestly, whether they admit it or not, it appears to me most of the good Calvinist I know operate that way anyway. Takes great delight in you living your life, the ups and the downs. I might get around to it, at some point. For my part, I honestly dont understand a need to defend Calvinism, or Luther, or the RCC, or Baptists, etc., etc. Ive never spent much time self-identifying as a Calvinist. If, however, a viewpoint *in itself*, genuinely hurts someone, it is wrong. Pray for him. I dont understand, then, why, on your blog, you allowed a Calvinism Free For All. I didnt notice any Calvinists telling people that God wanted you to be raped, or something like that. That Cals portray Cal in so many ways, even on the same points, adds another layer of confusion to the conversation for me. Hi guys, great posts, esp (from a personal point of view) from Jeff S, TW, Nick Bulbeck and others its been such a long thread I cant remember them all . I too have read Olson s book as well and appreciate his gentle spirit. I think that our doctrinal systems are mans attempt to understand based on what God has presented to us. But that doesnt mean I ignore what others have looked at in scripture and believed about it. ). So, for example, we just did this study of the WCF with a a group at my church. Reformed theology celebrates the glory of God. Keep in mind, until the last 7 years, I had no reason to view Calvinism with any sort of negativity. I dont find that these scenarios were what Jesus intended. Thank you for helping me out. To me, being fed pat answers is more analogous to being fed sawdust because fibre is good for you. From accuracy to portability, that #1 pick beat nearly every other model in our lineup for every metric. Most churches teach Arminian theology. There is a reason there has been a debate for centuries. I guess what Im trying to say is: No one forces any of us to comment; but once we do we are obligated to defend our ideas. But disagreeing with someone is not the same thing. Or if they reject it because they think it teaches that God loves to abuse his children. Those of us who were vocally opposed to the leadership during the days of the Brent Detwiler Wiki Wars were quietly asked to leave, and they held open the door for me and my family with dulcet platitudes and smiling faces. Ever. Once we start playing the salvation game, the battle becomes nasty. I used try but I have given up. Is some parts of the word more important than other parts? The fervor of thismovement reminds me of theearly, heady days oftheJesus movement. It doesnt conform to our sense of fairness and love. Carson D. James Kennedy J.I. Ive seen only the first 15 minutes so far, and what he says makes sense to me: Is God the AUTHOR OF SIN? Loving hurting people in real ways (listening/caring/supporting) can help SAVE lives, emotionally, spiritually, and even physically. For example, the word total in Total Depravity is an absolutethere is no such rational idea as partly total, which is what some Calvinists want to say when they declare that humans are not as bad as they could beas if this matters in the dualistic Calvinist paradigm: God is Good, and youare not. If we are acting primarily out of love, this becomes good works and is worthless. Thanks for the kind words; I can only hope that they are at least partially true. @ Daisy: If we cant really know the fundamentals, then, who are we to disagree with Calvinists on the secondaries? He got into this thing about to truly let someone have free will, not only do you have to permit them to disobey / do evil, but there has to be an opportunity to do good, too. Hopefully that will be winding down soon and Ill be able to get back on track this week or next. I was taught for years that my salvation was only a happy side effect of Gods bringing glory to Himself- and after years of trying to rationalize how horrible things that happen are scripted for us by God- and after years of listening to systematic theology that seeks to cram all the unexplainable nature and mystery of God into a neat, cut and dried smugness with a pat answer to everything- I am like a kid in a candy store. Quotes about calvinism It is not love to push Calvin. We might refer instead to TULIP as a doctrinal stance. B. Warfield said, "The Calvinist, in a word, is the man who sees God. I looked them up just long enough to figure out that Christus Victor is not necessarily the same as the ransom theory (I do kinda wish I knew more about this, since it gets lobbed at C. S. Lewis a lot because of LWW). I think these are minor issues, but it is what it is. One of the problems in these conversatiosn is that some Calvinists will say, Cal does not teach X!, and maybe it does not(? When people are discussing a theological point over which they have never been hurt, they will present more matter-of-factly. These are things that we can work on together, no matter our view on election. who needs systems & neat little boxes? Calvinist believe in the total depravity of man while Arminians hold to an idea dubbed "partial depravity." Calvinism: Because of the Fall, man is totally depraved and dead in his sin. Look for them. This is what has been preached to many people over and over. This is the reason I stopped reading JAs thread on Calvinism, and its the reason I will my best to stop reading this one. In fact, with respect and not intending to hurt feelings, it is the Calvinists who are misrepresenting their own doctrine by refusing to acknowledge the contradictions (whichthey do this by arguing that truth really cant be known). Until about 6 years ago, I never, once, had any conflict with those who are Reformed. I Am a Christian - The first reason I'm not a Calvinist is that John Calvin was a man. They find it sustaining. Open Discussion Page, 1 Corinthians 2:6-3:4Psalm 28:1-9Proverbs 20:24-25. A person who has been abused should get A LOT of leeway in airing their feelings, because for a time (maybe a LONG time), the value of their free expression is more important than trying to protect a viewpoint. However i wish i wouldnt see this on a Pastor in order for me to chose a congregation in such denomination without fear of having a surprise, Eastern Orthodoxy Roman Catholicism Anglicanism(One is allowed to be a Calvinist soteriologically, and some exist, but it is a minority position) Lutherans(although they might similar to one who does not know the nuances of their doctrine) Methodists, Certain Baptists(Although Baptists have their roots in Zwinglian Calvinism, and are doctrinally incoherent when they reject it) Charismatics(due to the fact they are doctrinally incoherent when it comes to these things, you can technically say they are not Calvinists). Agree that you cant really know, truth, and as such you can have NO basis for denying their doctrine. If God had not give Adam and Eve a test and just stuck them there in the Garden with no choices, or had God forced them to be good, that itself is not an act of good, and God would have had two robots on his hands. Or the ideological roots of abuse. This is as it should be, imo. We can just debate doctrine. Attendance at Calvin-influenced worship conferences and churches is up,. If Ive erred here, please forgive me for speaking out of turn . In fact, as Sproul describes what he sees as the sovereignty if God, his view is the latter- that God exercises his sovereignty by choosing what he allows and what he does not. Deny their premises, no matter how altruistic they may sound. But I respect that he does what he does for the same reason I do: we believe that people are at stake, and suffering is the penalty for losing the debate. I hear the word "gospel" placed in front of all primary and secondary issues. I read CS Lewis, Francis Schaeffer and many others. In fact, I recently wrote a song about it- some of the lyrics (this song could be titled ode to John Piper and his views on Divorce and Remarriage, but I did not quite go that far): So many people with big ideas who have it all figured out Do they represent your brand of reformed thought? And, for that matter, why is his style so difficult? Im sure there are believers in every venue. JeffB Great question and Im glad you asked. Wade is never too tired to defend what he believes, and he will not eschew the oppositions venue. Athanasian nope, that seems tove been written by someone (probably not Athanasius, by all accounts) barking up entirely the wrong end of the stick. With the Internet, you never know. Therefore, I wanted to keep the door open in this discussion. How can a bridge be built when the side you are attempting to reach constantly moves its shoreline back and forth in an effort to maintain its monolithic sovereignty as THE only standard of true Christian thought? I watched past the first 15 minutes to watch the whole thing, and the video host quotes Calvinists at many times (showing their quotes typed up on the screen), and some of the Cals he quoted do believe God is the author of evil. Ah yes, those were the days A friend of mine came to the Lord while living in the hills above Santa Barbara in a teepee and smoking a lot of pot He and his wife were some of the most sane, grounded people I knew in the 80s. Jeff, whether it was my misperceptions or real perceptions of the doctrine that you hold dear to your heart, someone trying to correct my faulty ideas of Calvinism isnt going to benefit me whatsoever if I am at the emotional/spiritual end of my rope. The list consists of 89 members. Or at least they start to think they have the powers and rights (divine?) What I mean is doctrinally I cant find the distinction. Calvin as a Ferengi LOL!!! Matthew Pinson Michael Brown Michael Heiser Mildred Bangs Wynkoop Miner Raymond N Nathan Bangs Norman Geisler [footnote]Geisler refers to himself as a Calvinist but his works reflect a more non-Calvinist view of soteriology [/footnote] O P Paige Patterson Philip H. Towner Q R Randolph S. Foster Ravi Zacharias Richard Lenski Richard Watson God would never have deliberately planned that my Calvinist pastor-father would sexually abuse me for years and years. Philosophers (not necessarily Christian ones) have wrestled with these questions for thousands of years without any real answers. (LogOut/ You see, dedicated, intelligent theologianshave gone down this road for centuries and still disagree with one another. So, in that manner, I have some suggestion on how to view Calvinists as a non-Calvinist. I am not saying that you or anyone else *shouldnt* feel that way that would be absurd. How to Resign from a Church Something like that. This is a corollary to Julie Anne Smith's story above. Im sure you didnt mean every single one. As my parents were from Scotland, NIreland.we all related to bring a wee bit different. But Jesus and he should know praised his Father for hiding these things from the wise and learned, revealing them instead to little weans. And of course, that is just RC Sproul, though I do know this idea of primary and secondary causes has been around for a while and is not primarily a Calvinist idea. And in their zeal, they often miss obvious signs that are bringing the hurt person even deeper into pain. I dont know. You might argue that with only a little bacteria, you might only get sick, but not die. Olson coined the label "Pannenberg's Principle" forWolfhart Pannenberg's argument (1969) that God's deity is his rule "The divinity of God and the reign of God in the world are inseparable."[6]. And I *know* that I sounded every bit as naive as those kids in the article. I think this is a bigger issue than Calvinism- its one fundamental to Christianity. I did not but I definitely got the immigrant part and am proud of m Russian heritage. Makes available his super-ability where your ability comes to an end. For non-Calvinists, this can get very confusing since each claims that theirs is the real interpretation of Calvin. The correct understanding of any belief system shouldnt be of importance when Jesus says to come to him as a child. Brings to mind the documentary This Emotional Life I saw on PBS. Im glad I know that now. Though it purports otherwise, its every bit as secular as the rest of them, as it has nothing to do with knowing the Father, and everything to do creating a theoretical specification for ones own ideal God. And no, I did not. As a moderator at my blog, yes, Id shut it down and recommend that they take it to the Calvinism debate thread if they want to discuss it further. Thanks. Why does a house wife bring more glory to God than a female scientist who wins a Nobel prize for her work? Here is a link to a chart comparing Calvinism to Arminianism. The reformed assume the posture that they alone safeguard Gods honor. And requires even more general kindness and that continued diet in that warm kitchen. If I am doing good by sowing good wheat kernels and not tares, why would the Almighty want to stop me? I know there are some whose solution is that God limits Himself so that He is not all-knowing; I dont see this in Scripture. I also want to learn to be a bit more like Olson, showing kindness in the midst of disagreement. In this final submission on this series, I interact with the [] The theology is weak. Hence the terrible attitude of many evangelicals towards science. . The promises are over the top.